Tribe.net. Local Connections mentalfreedomne1 http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/62bd5c34-2fc6-4c17-9f89-a8ff6308ced6 2006-04-11T03:47:38Z 2006-04-11T03:47:38Z

<div>Urgent!!! Please Help <br/> <br/>I am posting this everywhere I possibly can, Please help us. <br/>There are thousands of good people who could potentially lose their lives very soon. <br/> <br/>Since the release of the information on the Sujiatun concentration camp in China, which is reported to do live organ harvesting on Falun Gong practicioners. More people have been stepping forward to reveal information. Recently, a veteran military doctor in the region of Shenyang said that the Sujiatun Concentration camp is just one of 36 such camps. Another camp in Jilin Province referred to as 672-S is said to hold over 120,000 people. <br/> <br/>According to the Integrated Committee's announcement, transplant hospitals in China are now telling patients to "come in quickly" to get transplants. Patients are told that matching organs can be found at this time in as short as one or two days. The hospitals are also reported to say that, "it will be difficult after this batch of organs is used up." <br/> <br/>We fear that there is going to be a mass execution to “hide the evidence” and get rid of witnesses. PLEASE HELP us, Falun Gong practitioners around the world are requesting an international investigation while there is still time. <br/> <br/>This is the US petition, please sign it. It can save someone’s life. <br/>http://www.fofg.org/act/act_petition.php?pid=1 <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>you can also help by going here: <br/>http://publicpetition.unvcc.com/UN/index.php <br/>this is an easy, fill in the blank letter that with a click is automatically <br/>sent to the senators and representatives of your choice <br/>And it would also greatly help us if you would please pass this information on. <br/> <br/>Thank you, <br/>Joshua <br/> <br/> <br/>You can learn more about this at: <br/>The Epoch Times <br/>http://www.theepochtimes.com/211,111,,1.html <br/>Amnesty International <br/>http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/chn-summary-eng <br/>Falun Dafa Information Center <br/>http://www.faluninfo.net/why/index.asp <br/>or, you can ask me any questions you have by sending me a message.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

mentalfreedomne1 2006-04-11T03:47:38Z mentalfreedomne1 http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/7c06448b-65eb-4113-b522-487703695743 2006-03-25T03:11:45Z 2006-03-25T03:11:45Z

<div> <br/> <br/>Please help us to end this horrible persectuion. knowledge is our greatest weapon, so please share this information. together in peace we can make a difference. <br/> <br/>Falun Dafa is a peaceful meditation practice that teaches putting others before yourself, kindness, always telling the truth and being tolerant of others. We are literally being killed for being good people. The national media has done very little to help us because of trade issues with China. It is up to us to let the world know. Please help us. <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>By Ji Da <br/>The Epoch Times Mar 17, 2006 <br/>www.theepochtimes.com <br/> <br/>The witness, a former employee at the Liaoning Thrombosis Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine, and says the bodies of Falun Gong practitioners are cremated immediately after the organs are removed. (The Epoch Times) <br/>[High-resolution image ] A former employee of Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine told The Epoch Times during a recent interview that the Sujiatun Concentration Camp in China was actually a part of a hospital. The concentration camp has engaged in taking organs from Falun Gong practitioners when they were still alive and selling the organs. Since 2001, the concentration camp has secretly detained approximately 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, none of whom have been able to leave the camp alive. The hospital removed many kidneys, livers, and corneas from the practitioners. After the organ removal, the practitioners were thrown into an incinerator, which was converted from a boiler. Their ashes were dumped together with burned charcoal. <br/> <br/> <br/>Organs from Three Quarters of the 6,000 People Were Removed <br/>Those whose organs were removed were in various states of health. Because many of the victims were illegally detained, there was neither an arrest warrant nor identification as to who these people actually were. Often after their organs were removed, nobody claimed the bodies. Sometimes their bodies were picked up by crooks who pretended to be their family members. <br/> <br/>About three-quarters of the 6,000 people died after their hearts, kidneys, corneas, or skin was removed; their bodies were then burned. This witness, whose family member participated in the removal of Falun Gong practitioners' organs, said that approximately 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners remain in the hospital. She was afraid that the authorities would kill all of them to destroy evidence. <br/> <br/>The Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine is located at 49 Xuesong Road, Sujiatun, Shenyang City, Liaoning Province, China. It was the first hospital in China to specialize in the heart, the brain, and surrounding blood vessels. The hospital is composed of several organizations, including the Liaoning Traditional Chinese Medicine College Teaching Hospital and the Shenyang Thrombosis Treatment Center. <br/> <br/> <br/>Concentration Camp Details <br/>The hospital site is 21,087 square meters, with 17,564 square meters of building area. It employs 460 people in 24 departments and 20 specialized offices. Information from the Chinese government shows that the hospital was established in December 1988, and was formerly named the Shenyang Research Institute of Thrombosis and Liaoning Province Thrombosis Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine. In June 1998, it was renamed China Traditional Medicine Thrombosis Treatment Center. <br/> <br/>The Chinese Business Morning View said in a story on July 4, 2004, that a farm worker died of abnormal causes in Sujiatun, Shenyang and was later cremated. The death certificate was provided by the Chinese Medicine Thrombosis Treatment Center in Sujiatun. The news caused a stir in China. <br/> <br/> <br/>Epoch Times: Did the hospital's medical staff inside the concentration camp know about this? <br/> <br/>Answer: This hospital has a small number of officials and some doctors involved secretively in the operation of organ harvesting. Some other staff in the hospital knew about this, but this is absolutely a taboo [to talk about]. They all are afraid of being killed or courting trouble, so they all avoid the issue. Only those highly trusted doctors could be chosen to be the surgeons for organ harvesting operations. <br/> <br/>ET: Were Falun Gong practitioners alive when their organs were harvested? Did their families know about this? <br/> <br/>Answer: Falun Gong practitioners who were imprisoned there came mostly from Dabei Prison, Masanjia Labor Camp, and other prisons in Shenyang, or they were Falun Gong practitioners arrested in parks or residential homes. Because they refused to denounce Falun Gong, they were arrested without formal warrants, and their families did not know their situation. Many did not even have their names [recorded]. In addition, since the Chinese authority exercises a policy of "not being responsible" for killing Falun Gong practitioners, the death of Falun Gong practitioners is not a very big issue for prisons. The Chinese Communist Party persecutes Falun Gong, [but] these medical personnel were told Falun Gong practitioners were facing death because they killed people, or they were sentenced to death because of crimes, or they had become insane from practicing Falun Gong. <br/> <br/>Those Falun Gong practitioners whose organs were harvested came from several types. <br/> <br/>Organs harvested from live bodies are worth far more than organs taken from dead bodies. Many Falun Gong practitioners were still alive when their organs were taken. After their organs were cut out, some of these people were thrown directly into the crematorium to be burnt, thus leaving no evidence. For some others, after their organs were stolen, the doctor sewed up the wound and asked the family or family representative to give a signature for cremation. Family members did not know at all that the dead had their organs taken out. <br/> <br/>Furthermore, there were some healthy Falun Gong practitioners in prisons in other areas who were injected—without their knowledge—with psychoactive drugs that made their minds confused. They then were transferred to Sujiantun concentration camp to suffer further torture, till in the end their organs were harvested and their bodies were cremated in secret. <br/> <br/>Among the Falun Gong practitioners whose organs were harvested, some were weak and some were healthy. Since most of them were illegally arrested, there were no arrest warrants or identification cards. After their organs were taken out while they were still alive, no one came to claim their bodies; or [sometimes] people using fake identities claimed their bodies. <br/> <br/>None of these people have come out [of the concentration camp] alive; three-quarters of these 6,000 people have died, having their hearts, kidneys, retinas, and skins harvested and their bodies disposed of. I think now about 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners are still in this hospital, and I am afraid now that the authority will destroy all evidence and kill them. <br/> <br/>Question: How did you know these things? Were you yourself a doctor involved in organ harvesting? <br/> <br/>Answer: I worked at the Liaoning Provincial Thrombosis Hospital of Integrated Chinese and Western Medicine, Shenyang. This is exactly where this concentration camp is located. One of my family members was involved in the operation to harvest Falun Gong practitioners' organs. This has brought great pain to our family. <br/> <br/>Question: Please tell us what you knew about. <br/> <br/>Answer: From 2001, our hospital started to detain Falun Gong practitioners. At the beginning, these people were detained in the single-storey houses in the back yard of the hospital. Later, the hospital authorities demolished the single-storey houses, and it was unknown where in the hospital the Falun Gong practitioners were transferred. Many staff of the hospital discussed in private that these Falun Gong practitioners had been secretly transferred to the underground chambers of the hospital. According to some people working inside the hospital, the hospital has a huge system of secret underground chambers. <br/> <br/>At the time when we went to work there, the person in charge of logistics and purchasing in the hospital said that the quantity of disposable sterile gloves used for operations and daily supplies that the hospital authorities asked to be purchased had increased dramatically. The logistics people estimated based on the scale of purchases at that time that there were at least 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners detained in this hospital. <br/> <br/>These Falun Gong practitioners were not detained in the 4-story building under the in-patient department and administration at the front of the hospital, in order to keep the hospital staff from seeing them at all. We only occasionally saw Falun Gong practitioners being sent on a mobile intensive care bed to the first floor for physical examinations. These people were very weak. For the majority of the Falun Gong practitioners, nobody knew where they were being secretly kept. While they still did not know where these people were kept, some staff inquired to the hospital authorities about why so much food and so many sterile gloves and daily supplies were purchased. The hospital authorities said, "You only need to do your job well. There is no need for you to ask any other questions." <br/> <br/>Starting in 2001, a family member of mine participated in organ-harvesting operations. My family member tried to keep me from knowing about this at the beginning. The hospital authorities selected doctors they trust in different aspects to perform the secretive operations. After a period of time, I found that my family member was in a lot pain, often had nightmares, and appeared panic-stricken. After repeated inquiries, this family member told me the truth. The leader of the hospital had asked my family member to participate in the organ harvesting operations on Falun Gong practitioners as early as 2001. It was 2003 when my family member confessed. A few years after, my family member felt so much pain from participating in this incident that it was impossible to continue with the evildoing. My family member decided to go abroad to get away from this matter. <br/> <br/>My family member also told me: "you don't understand my suffering; those Falun Gong practitioners were alive. It might be easier for me if they were dead, but they were alive." <br/> <br/>Question: Were there any other doctors from the hospital taking part in the operations of cutting out Falun Gong practitioners' organs? <br/> <br/>Answer: I know there were some. All these things have been carried out secretly. Many doctors at our hospital involved were practicum doctors transferred from other hospitals. Because the government does not want to be responsible for Falun Gong practitioners' bodies and lives, their lives are treated as garbage by the regime, and their bodies were used in experiments by new doctors doing their practitcums. <br/> <br/>Many doctors came and left the hospital because they suffered a lot after having been involved in these kinds of things. They either requested to be transferred to other places, or changed their names. Some might have been killed to eliminate the evidence, their identity files were taken out from the hospital's filing system, or their names were changed. Nobody knows where the doctors have gone. <br/> <br/>The hospital staff all know that the rear part of the hospital is forbidden. It is always watched. The staff avoids talking about the place. <br/> <br/>Question: It is said the hospital is equipped with an incinerator. The person whose organs were removed will be burned when he or she is still alive. Is that true? <br/> <br/>Answer: The employees in our hospital call this place "the incinerator." Actually, it is a boiler room. Some poor farmers from nearby places were hired to work in the boiler room. They were penniless when they first came here. But they could scrape up some watches, finger rings, necklaces, and so on. The amount is not small. It is said by the employees in the hospital these jewelry and watches were collected from the Falun Gong practitioners whose organs had been removed when they were about to be thrown in the boiler to be burned. It is also said by the employees in the hospital, some were still alive when being thrown into the boiler. <br/> <br/>Question: Do they get injection of anesthetic when in surgery? <br/> <br/>Answer: Yes. There is a cap to the anesthetic quantity used in mainland China's hospitals. Generally, the supply of anesthetic was determined according to the accommodation of the hospital. To the public, the number of patients in our care appears to be very small, and publicly reported number of surgical procedures performed is quite low. But the equipment and articles used in surgery are abundant. Because the amount of anesthetic is limited, these secret surgeries could not use the normal anesthetic doses. In order to save anesthetic, they economized on the anesthetic used in surgeries on these Falun Gong practitioners. The amount of anesthetic used was very small. However, many whose organs were removed were still alive. You can imagine the pain suffered by the Falun Gong practitioners whose organs were removed. <br/> <br/>Question: Are there any survivors among the 6,000 people detained since 2001? <br/> <br/>Answer: Nobody has come out alive. The number of them gets smaller and smaller. The Falun Gong practitioners detained at Sujiatun are fewer now than before. But I believe that the sin of removing the organs of the Falun Gong practitioners is still continuing. <br/> <br/>Question: Where are these organs usually sold to? Do the higher authorities in the government know about this? <br/> <br/>Answer: They are mainly sold to Thailand, but I believe they are also sold to other regions of the world. Nowadays, there are many patients in China who need human skin, corneas, and kidneys for organ transplant surgeries. Many patients have to wait in line to purchase organs. Currently, a kidney can be sold up to the price of 30,000 to 100,000 U.S. dollars. The profit from selling organs is simply too great. The people who benefit from this are not only the top leaders of hospital and the officials of the Chinese Communist Party's Heath Department. This is a crime present across the entire nation. People ranging from government officials to doctors to organ sellers are all involved in this and are profiting greatly. <br/> <br/>Question: Why did they target Falun Gong practitioners as the source of organs? <br/> <br/>Answer: Because relatives of many Falun Gong practitioners don't even know that their family members were arrested. So if the Falun Gong practitioners are killed, there will be no one to come and claim their dead bodies. <br/> <br/>Question: Why did you want to expose this? This may bring great danger to you. <br/> <br/>Answer: I know that there are many Falun Gong practitioners who are currently detained at the hospital. I would like to expose this to the international community, so those who are not yet killed can be saved. Also, I would like to expose this as an atonement for my family. <br/> <br/>I am not a Falun Gong practitioner. But as a former staff member of the hospital, I have the responsibility to expose the truth, and let the world to save those Falun Gong practitioners who are still alive. Organs of some Falun Gong practitioners are still living on patients' bodies. I would like to call on all society to pay attention to this issue and stop this shocking crime. <br/> <br/>you can find out how you can help at www.fofg.org</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

mentalfreedomne1 2006-03-25T03:11:45Z http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/dbaa51c5-4036-4aed-bc4c-b7c1b69f0fed 2006-01-07T22:50:04Z 2006-01-07T22:50:04Z

<div>What a Progressive Thinks about Business, Corporations and Capitalism <br/> <br/>by Stevietheman (Steve Magruder) <br/> <br/>------ <br/> <br/>I'm not anti-business. I'm pro- ethical business. I'm pro- transparent business. I'm pro- earth-friendly business. I'm pro- small business. I love the excitement of running a business. I love providing products and services that customers want and need. I love making an honest return on my efforts. I love business. <br/> <br/>I'm not anti-corporation. I'm against corporatism. I'm against big corporations getting favors from government at the expense of small business and individuals. I'm against unethical or environmentally destructive behavior by corporations. I'm against how some corporations undervalue career and professionalism. I'm against corporations shutting out organized labor. I'm against corporations that work against the best interests of their communities. I'm against short-term thinking in corporations at the expense of long-term viability and achievement. I'm against the legal fiction of corporate personhood. But I think corporations in and of themselves have great potential for incredible productivity and economies of scale, not to mention wealth creation. Corporations can be and are often good players. <br/> <br/>I'm not anti-capitalism or anti- free market. I believe in a true free market, unencumbered by big corporate or government power that denies competition. I believe in a decentralized capitalist economy. I believe in transparent markets and honest accounting. I believe that monopoly power is easily abused and must be regulated. I don't believe in socialism, but I do believe in a basic safety net so that “losers” in the capitalist economy can spring back and participate yet again. I believe that robust public education and universal health care access are the foundations for a perpetually healthy capitalist economy. I think capitalism is great.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

2006-01-07T22:50:04Z Lisa http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/9c53ea9a-7155-4740-9d6a-80fddc5799b5 2005-09-27T21:37:48Z 2005-09-19T22:01:22Z

<div>Dump the Democrats &amp; Republicans! <br/> <br/> <br/>New American Independent tribe. <br/>http://tribes.tribe.net/NewAmericanIndependent</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 2 replies </div>

Lisa 2005-09-19T22:01:22Z Rainbow_Watcher http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/fbe31d56-4fe0-463f-9540-e45a6f28d574 2005-09-10T18:24:28Z 2005-09-10T18:24:28Z

<div>In 2002 the Federal Government arrested Joseph Padilla, a U.S. Citizen, but also a "former Chicago gang member" (I think that's code for, "he sure ain't a white guy"), at O'Hare Airport in Chicago as he returned to the U.S. The military has held him since, without trial, on a presidential order declaring him an enemy combatant. While a lower court ruled that this was unconstitutional (ever heard of habeus corpus, or the right to a speedy trial, or the right to face your accusers?), the 4th Circuit Court (including one judge reportedly being considered for a supreme court nomination) ruled yesterday, unanimously, that even in the absence of criminal charges "the president can indefinitely detain a U.S. citizen captured on U.S. soil...holding that such authority is vital to protect the nation from terrorist attack" (Minneapolis Star Tribune, Saturday, September 10, 2005, p. A4). (fuller story online: http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/5605519.html) <br/> <br/>Warning, my friends: don't do anything or offend anybody that might lead to an accusation that you could be a terrorist or involved with terrorists or thinking about terrorism or sympathetic with terrorists or anything other than one-hundred and ten percent with the President of these United States. We all know that "you're either with us or against us," so if you criticize George W. and his royal we, "us," you must be against us. <br/> <br/>Beware, abandoned citizens of New Orleans: you're actions might be deemed terroristic unless you stand firmly with the government that served you so well. Did you break a store window to find diapers, food, water? Damn, that's a terrorist attack against capitalism, the foundation of the "us" that you're supposed to stand with, not against. You must be against "us." The president might decide to declare you enemy combatants and hold you against your will without charges indefinitely on some military base(s). <br/> <br/>Caution, non-Christian critics of the president: clearly if you're not Christian, as determined by narrow conservative fundamentalist definitions, you're suspect and definitely not with "us." So you must be against "us." Don't speak up too loudly or call attention to yourselves, or the president might declare you an enemy combatant, arrest you on U.S. soil, and hold you with no charges indefinitely. <br/> <br/>Look out, voters who vote against the president and his party. If you're not with us, you're against us. If you don't support the president and his party, you're not with us. You, too, must be enemy combatants. <br/> <br/>Not white? Don't even think about doing anything but what you're told by those in power. Certainly, if you're not white, you're not with this "us." <br/> <br/>Supporter of the president? Wait... did you just say he looks a little tired... hold on... you're not with "us"? <br/> <br/>Hello? Anybody home? <br/> <br/>Welcome to Germany, early 1930s.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

Rainbow_Watcher 2005-09-10T18:24:28Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/977bf308-63e9-43fc-8d9b-45cca7a57e14 2005-08-24T18:20:30Z 2003-12-04T16:35:22Z

<div>Controversial, no? <br/> <br/>So: <br/> <br/>Should unmarried gay couples have the same rights as heterosexual couples? <br/> <br/>Should gay marriage be legal, and just give all married couples the same rights? <br/> <br/>Should unmarried couples be given the same rights as married couples? <br/> <br/>And, should people in a position of trust and care (i.e., bishops) be able to publically urge gay people to be "cured" through aversion therapy (which involves electro-shock treatment, solitary confinement, etc)?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 25 replies </div>

Mo 2003-12-04T16:35:22Z Syr_Anton http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/dce4d98e-2d1f-4c8f-ae4e-9d515d5933f3 2005-08-11T03:09:08Z 2005-08-11T03:09:08Z

<div>Calling all Independants, Third Party Supporters and even disgruntled Republocrats. It is time for We the People to do something to take back America in the name of "We the People". <br/> <br/>Join the Tribe to find out more. <br/> <br/>http://tribes.tribe.net/wethepeople</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

Syr_Anton 2005-08-11T03:09:08Z http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/0aa602bb-e2db-42bc-8b61-4eec4ac0619b 2004-10-26T01:54:32Z 2004-10-26T01:54:32Z

<div>A column from a fledgling Libertarian web site dedicated to California news, politics, culture, and lifestyle. (www.battlecry-ca.com) <br/> <br/>Best wishes, <br/>Mike Forbes <br/> <br/> <br/>The phrase "October Surprise" was invented on Oct. 2, 1980 by George H. Bush at a campaign appearance in Eugene, Ore. Mr. Bush warned that President Carter might engineer an event that would change the way the electorate viewed the national race because, "When you are a president, you have an ability to shape things to some degree.” &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>Whether there will be an October Surprise in 2004 remains to be seen. We may even see a November 1st Surprise. Or a 2nd of November Surprise. Or we may see an October Surprise not engineered by the President. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>If an October Surprise were to occur, what manifestation is it likely to take? Might it be the announcement that Osama bin Laden has been captured? &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>Earlier in the year, both left and right-wing ideologues claimed that the U.S. military already had Osama bin Laden on ice, ready to be produced. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>Putting that nonsense aside, what are the chances Osama will be taken between now and the election? &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>The C.I.A. believes bin Laden is in a mountainous area north of the Pakistani city of Quetta. The region is populated with bin Laden supporters and the terrorist leader is estimated to have 50 bodyguards with him at all times. bin Laden and his men sleep in caves. The area is subject to snow storms sweeping 10,000ft-high mountains and buffeted by high winds. There are no roads and donkeys are the preferred mode of transport. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>This makes conventional assault- surrounding the area and methodically searching for the terrorist- impossible. The plan to capture bin Laden would depend on a swift, surgical operation. Special Forces troops in Afghanistan await intelligence about bin Laden’s location and the order to snatch him. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>Capturing bin Laden would seal the election for Bush. The only problem is no one in the U.S. military knows where to find The World’s Most Wanted Man. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>The U.S. hasn’t been able to locate bin Laden since 9/11. Let some simple, extremely unscientific numbers set the odds for bin Laden’s capture between now and the election- 160 weeks since the W.T.C. Bombings without useable intelligence : 1 week remaining before the election. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>The far more likely October Surprise is that Al Qaeda will employ the Madrid Strategy, so named for the March 11, 2004 commuter train bombings in Spain that killed 191 people, to turn voters against President Bush. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>The Madrid Strategy seeks to pick away at the coalition until it is reduced until only the U.S. remains. The bombings in Spain were clearly intended to coincide with that country’s election season. Al Qaeda’s hopes of turning middle-of-the-road voters against supporting U.S. efforts to stabilize Iraq were realized. The terrorists, heartened by success in Spain, will try their best to strike where Americans will feel it most. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>Battle Cry doesn’t shy from making predictions and so far we’re 2-0, but we can’t employ that kind of a hot streak in an arena that deals with domestic terrorism. Instead, Battle Cry will set the odds. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>Odds on a domestic terrorist attack before Election Day… 1 : 1. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>And if terrorists succeed in killing Americans at home? &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>Bush would be victorious. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/> <br/> <br/>There is little doubt that the Bush Administration, though hamstrung by the lumbering nature of all bureaucracies, has done its best to protect Americans at home and no patriotic American could ever believe that an American leader of either party would allow an attack to occur for political gain. &amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>Americans aren’t appeasers. Blood on American soil would put even “safe” states like California back into contention.&amp;lt;br> &amp;lt;br> <br/> <br/>(www.battlecry-ca.com)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

2004-10-26T01:54:32Z http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/ac3c7163-8b43-4ed4-b099-41e50fb93b1e 2004-10-23T01:37:57Z 2004-10-23T01:37:57Z

<div>...check out our site. Lend us your perspective. We need content. Join our team today. <br/> <br/>Battle Cry (www.BattleCry-CA.com) is an electronic periodical dedicated to articulating, shaping, and promulgating the ideas that will secure liberty and prosperity for the inhabitants of California. <br/> <br/>Battle Cry is a non-partisan news source that seeks to increase individual freedom and responsibility, protect the rights of property owners, bolster a marketplace that encourages business and the creation of wealth, improve education, manage our environment at the crossroad of sustainability and profitability, aid in the swift rendering of humane justice, and find solutions to the problems we hold in common with our neighbors in a manner that encourages peace and tolerance. <br/> <br/>We give equal space to all qualified viewpoints. Our philosophy is built around respect. We are looking for intelligent activists and writers to join our team. Here is our code: <br/>Working for Change First, Dollars Second <br/> Our contributions to Battle Cry should be directed in the spirit of our mission statement: to articulate, shape, and promulgate ideas that will secure liberty and prosperity for California. Our goal is to make the world a better place. BattleCry-CA.com is run for profit, but compensation should not be our sole consideration. Ideally, we will look upon working for a better future as our foremost reason for contributing to BattleCry-CA.com. At Battle Cry we work for change first, dollars second. This mind-set will help BattleCry-CA.com survive until our company begins to generate revenue. Helping one’s community is a reward unto itself; the paycheck is gravy. (Compensation schedules are addressed below.) Remembering this attitude after the money begins to arrive will assure that we continue to affect positive change. <br/>Employee Empowerment <br/> People are Battle Cry’s most important resource and the key to our competitive advantages. We have experts writing in every topic. The way to sustain a high level of enthusiasm and personal satisfaction is to empower the individual. Our product is timely, interesting information that people trust and want. How editors and writers go about making that product is up to them. <br/> Building networks of contacts and writers is an important task for all levels of Battle Cry personnel. The more people working with us the better our product will be, the faster our popularity will grow, the quicker we will turn a profit. We are our own best publicity department and our own best recruiters. <br/> Editors have been told they should treat their subject categories as their own personal kingdoms. It is up to the editors which topics are reported. The editor of each bureau knows that subject best; they know what should be written. <br/> Battle Cry’s only content stipulations, besides that articles be timely, interesting, and pertinent to California, are no advocating treason (violent overthrow of the United States government/giving comfort or aid to foreign enemies), no anonymous sources (all original writing citing opinions or containing quotes must have a name verifiable by a phone number), and no conspiracy theories (no proof means no publish). <br/> However, editors are advised to keep the publisher and managing editor informed of their intended course of articles. Doing so will prevent repetition of subjects, conflicts with other editors, and the wasting of time on subjects that are of marginal interest. Occasionally a subject may straddle the lines between the boundaries of two subjects. The publisher will decide which editor and writer will offer Battle Cry’s position. <br/>Respect for Diversity <br/> <br/> Respect for the views of others is the concept that unifies Battle Cry into a team for change. Harnessing the thinking, ideas, and energy of a wide cross-section of people is the best strategy for us to find stories and information that no one else has yet. It is of paramount importance that we demonstrate trust and respect for the unique talents and perspective of each member of Battle Cry. Each person on our staff is an expert in their field. Please defer to their expertise or simply agree to disagree. <br/>Professionalism <br/> Everyone is expected to conduct themselves with professionalism when acting in their capacity as members of the Battle Cry staff. We must be seen by all who come in contact with us as sober, rational, and lucid. <br/> Please take the time to use an endearment when writing email on behalf of Battle Cry. Please use the spell check and re-read what you have written when corresponding with writers or other companies. Please do not over-use capitals, engage in “flaming” email, over-punctuate (???), or use dem <br/> <br/>Visit our site, take a look around, then contact us at managingeditor@battlecry-ca.com. Help change California for the better! Join our team today! <br/> <br/>It’s a great day for California! <br/>- Michael M. Forbes, Publisher of Battle Cry (www.BattleCry-CA.com)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

2004-10-23T01:37:57Z Dave http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/7b571244-7cbd-4f36-bae1-168c69f0cec4 2004-10-14T10:17:35Z 2004-10-07T11:25:54Z

<div>Hijacking tribes and overrunning them with badly spelt, poorly worded, USA-centric discussions among people who probably didn't score highly in literacy tests. Should we bring back hanging in such cases? <br/> <br/>Smiley-faces and a sense of humour.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 1 reply </div>

Dave 2004-10-07T11:25:54Z Gabriel http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/d4edabcd-125d-4404-a784-3fdcf1586c17 2004-09-27T02:09:44Z 2004-09-01T02:19:03Z

<div>At the Green Party Convention this year it was "agreed upon" that David Cobb would run as our canidate for president. Many greens feel what the Green Party did was wrong and that Cobb should not have been nominated. I too beleave that Cobb should not have been nominated but not because he doesn't deserve it, the reason is much more complex. The fact of the matter is that Republicans and Democrates rule and as of right now we can't really do much but try and get our view noticed. This election in particular is a very very crucial one and many things are at stake. We all know Bush has to go, thats a given, but how in the world do we expect to do this when we have Kerry, Cobb, and Nader to chose from? This election is bigger then Democrates, Greens, Republicans, and all of that. This election is bigger then that. Nader is a strong canidate that for some reason decided to run on his own. Now, we can ether be babys and cry about it and elect our own canadate or we can try and help our contry by getting our view heard rather then the Green name by supporting Nader. The issue is this, If we have 2 people with our views out there, that only devides our votes and gives us less of a chance to make a stand. Also, not only will Nader and Cobb take votes from eachother but they'll take votes from Kerry as well and I sure as hell don't want Bush around for the next 4 years. Bottom line is, the green party needs to get its head out of its ass and support Nader. <br/> <br/>\m/ GaBe \m/</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 9 replies </div>

Gabriel 2004-09-01T02:19:03Z BudBuckley http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/da3a8f12-ebff-4b26-8a92-d3aef5807fa0 2004-07-05T13:47:52Z 2004-07-05T13:47:52Z

<div>Here's a link to a site that checks claims made by both sides against the facts. It's non partisan but guess who looks worse? <br/> <br/>http://www.factcheck.org/ <br/></div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

BudBuckley 2004-07-05T13:47:52Z http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/86405079-539f-4c50-91a2-3b476b848249 2004-06-28T07:53:40Z 2004-06-28T07:53:40Z

<div>volunteer.johnkerry.com/member/170460 </div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

2004-06-28T07:53:40Z b3gl http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/f544326c-e23e-4a03-b9ec-b11a1a93a12d 2004-03-03T12:15:32Z 2003-12-04T18:02:19Z

<div> <br/>Molly has picked a winner in 2004: Howard Dean. <br/> <br/>"...I don't think Dean is a moderate centrist. I think he's a fighting centrist. And folks, I think we have got ourselves a winner here." <br/> <br/>Here's a link to how and why Molly came to believe that Dr. Dean is the man to beat George Bush in 2004: <br/> <br/>http://tinyurl.com/xnrb <br/> <br/> <br/>r.m.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 1 reply </div>

b3gl 2003-12-04T18:02:19Z chris http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/bd2e6659-777f-403e-b043-a9386014df7b 2004-02-17T10:31:55Z 2003-12-30T20:37:00Z

<div>When I was a nipper, a family holiday coinciding with the school term was a very rare event. Nowadays it seems commonplace. So much so that the British Government wants to fine parents a £100 truancy notice for taking their children out of school without permission. <br/> <br/>For once, I agree with the government. One of the responsibilities of parenthood is ensuring their children receive a good education. Another is to take on the extra financial burden that children bring with them. If this means paying the higher cost of travel during the school holidays then so be it. <br/> <br/>What does everyone else think?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 4 replies </div>

chris 2003-12-30T20:37:00Z Jamie http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/85267c42-e0db-45c7-a2a0-f6af9aa935ec 2004-02-12T15:16:23Z 2004-02-03T08:14:32Z

<div>France are currently debating a law set to ban symbols of religious faith in schools, which would effectively outlaw the wearing of headscarves, turbans, large crosses, skullcaps, or even the growing of beards, if done so for religious reasons. <br/> <br/>Their president, Jacques Chirac has said it is necessary to preserve the national principle of secularity - separating religion and state. <br/> <br/>Does this seem a bit wrong to anyone else? Or just me?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 17 replies </div>

Jamie 2004-02-03T08:14:32Z Jamie http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/3a9f7658-ba7e-41ad-bb0e-6b1675317433 2004-01-09T09:36:35Z 2004-01-07T09:19:45Z

<div>Ok. Call me bitter, but I'm going to post this anyway. <br/> <br/>I think that somehow, the law needs to be changed, so that there is a presumption for parents to have contact with their child(ren) when they seperate. <br/> <br/>Currently, the law permits contact orders to be made, yet when mothers (or fathers) refuse to cooperate, judges will not enforce the orders they themselves have made. <br/> <br/>I'll take a quote here, from the F4J website: <br/> <br/>"Parliament's express intention in the 1989 Children's Act was exactly this yet the child's best interest principle has now effectively become the mothers best interest. <br/> <br/>A recent judgement by Lord Justice Thorpe severing contact between a child and her father gave the green light to recalcitrant mothers that they could veto contact between children and their fathers if this made them 'anxious or depressed.' <br/> <br/>So why is the Lord Chancellor's Department failing to uphold the will of Parliament? Why is it failing families? Why is it failing our children and grandchildren?" <br/> <br/>Out of respect for differing circumstances, I'd replace 'mothers' in the above quote with 'resident parents' because I know that when the circumstances are reversed, fathers are just as likely to deny contact. <br/> <br/>Still. <br/> <br/>What can be done?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 10 replies </div>

Jamie 2004-01-07T09:19:45Z Dave http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/f12f819f-1d2c-40e6-982d-38e5f2132d90 2003-12-30T01:14:27Z 2003-12-18T13:34:03Z

<div>Sixteen year olds are allowed to have sex, pay taxes and die serving their country; should they be allowed to vote too? <br/> <br/>Is it only fair that they should get a say in how their country is run and how their taxes are spent? Or are they too concerned with alcopops and TOTP? <br/> <br/>Maybe the voting age should be raised to 21, instead? I can't see this happening though -- voter turnout is low enough already. <br/> <br/>Maybe the voting and drinking ages should be kept apart ;) <br/> <br/>(I'm talking rightpondian only.)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 14 replies </div>

Dave 2003-12-18T13:34:03Z gabriel http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/6964661f-2295-4b3b-aa37-bd05cf54cb1e 2003-12-29T08:39:24Z 2003-12-27T13:48:13Z

<div> <br/> <br/> You are invited to join the Virtual Greens e-group. The purpose of this group is to become a conduit for the coordination of a national effort to support the next Green presidential campaign in "safe" states using research, e-mail, bulk mailings and long distance telephone banks. By focusing a national campaign on the "safe" states we, as a third party, would be capable of putting our efforts exactly where we have the best chances of success. <br/> We believe that the very existence of a successful Green cyber-campaign that is aimed at "safe states" in 2004 could break the barriers of distance that have historically held back the advancement of third parties in America. <br/> <br/> We also intend to work in support of other campaigns where the Green Party has a real chance of achieving a significant political victory, such as the Matt Gonzolez campaign in San Francisco or the IRV referendum in Alaska. We believe that with a large enough active membership base we could take advantage of our numbers nationwide to conceivably overwhelm a political opponent and thus nullify the power of big money in certain key political campaigns. <br/> <br/>To subscribe to this e-group please send an e-mail to: <br/>virtual_greens-subscribe@yahoogroups.com</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 2 replies </div>

gabriel 2003-12-27T13:48:13Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/b6c294ab-3036-4ec5-b91a-bfc582887c63 2003-12-18T12:09:10Z 2003-12-17T12:13:57Z

<div>It's recently emerged that Ian Huntley's been found guilty on two counts of murder. No suprises there. <br/> <br/>What is interesting is that Humberside Police have issued a statement saying that they've had eight previous complaints made against him of sexual assault on a minor, and one complaint of rape (which presumably means an adult). None of the complaints ever went to court (as I understand it, because of the wishes of those making the complaints; nothing unusual there). <br/> <br/>The question is (and I'm pretty sure this will be suggested by various people in the aftermath of the trial): should the Sex Offenders Register whereby a entry can be made about a person along with a question mark (indicating that allegations have been made, but nothing has been proven, with an expiry such that if no subsequent complaints are made, the entry vanishes after a while)? The reason being; Huntley was a caretaker at a school; had any of the complaints been proven in court, he would have immediately been placed on the Register and prevented from working at any school or care establishment (domicillary care, hospitals, clinics, an dso forth). <br/> <br/>Is there scope for doing something like this, or is it more trouble than it's worth?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 15 replies </div>

Mo 2003-12-17T12:13:57Z Matt http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/f89476a5-921f-4401-b5a9-3ed5263c0572 2003-12-16T22:51:21Z 2003-12-16T22:51:21Z

<div>A friend at work and I were discussing the controversy over electronic voting systems in the US (Diebold etc.) We chatted about how it seemed a bit unnecessary, and wondered how we could instead improve current procedures. Here's what we came up with. Any comments? (Sorry for the long post) <br/> <br/> <br/>Voting procedure <br/>================ <br/> <br/>Monitoring staff <br/>---------------- <br/>Polling stations manned by a group of people from the constituency, selected at random in the manner of a trial jury. These people should be trained in the procedures for monitoring the polling station, as described below. <br/> <br/>Identification <br/>-------------- <br/>(not initially considered in detail apart from "there should be some secure method of identification to ensure that only those eligible may vote, and then only once") <br/> <br/>There should be a list, created from the electoral register, of all the people eligible to vote within a constituency, contained on an isolated computing device along with a definitive way of identification of the individuals concerned (perhaps biometric information). Obviously, this machine needs to be secure in and of itself, exercise for the reader, etc. <br/> <br/>The system also requires that individuals have a single specific polling station they are eligible to vote at (is that the case now?) <br/> <br/>The Ballot paper and voting <br/>--------------------------- <br/>The ballot papers consist of a batch of small books with identical covers. Inside the front cover there will be a unique machine-readable code. There will be a page in the book for each possible option the voters have. Each page has its central portion uniquely coloured, is perforated vertically in the centre, and each half of the page also contains the unique code. <br/> <br/>As the electoral register should hold an exact record of the number of eligible voters, it should be possible to print precisely the correct number of books. The books shall be sent out in batches to the polling stations, in the correct numbers for each station's eligible voters. <br/> <br/>Once a voter's identity has been confirmed, they should proceed along to pick up a ballot paper of their choice. A member of the monitoring staff should ensure that precisely one is taken, but should not be shown the unique code for that paper. This is intended to prevent a connection between a voter and the vote they cast. <br/> <br/>The voter will go into a polling booth of some design, that should prevent viewing of the paper. The voter should detach the page corresponding to the vote they wish to cast, ensuring the corresponding counterfoil remains in the book. Once done, they close the book, fold the removed page so the code is out of view, and then proceed to deposit book and page in separate locked, opaque boxes. <br/> <br/>Counting votes <br/>-------------- <br/>The primary method of counting votes should be that of counting the contents the boxes of counterfoils from the polling stations. Counting devices would be used on the unfolded pages to automatically count (in the manner of paper money counting machines) and ensure each book has only been used once. All the recorded codes should be logged centrally, and any duplicates found will discount both pages. <br/> <br/>The boxes containing the books with the remaining pages and counterfoil provide a secondary counting method. This to be done by hand, each book should be checked for having a single page removed. Any with multiple pages missing should be discounted.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

Matt 2003-12-16T22:51:21Z b3gl http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/9e23d67a-b8b5-4f2f-8b95-1dbf45616573 2003-12-15T11:38:31Z 2003-12-08T22:55:26Z

<div>USA today is reporting that tomorrow in New York, former Vice President Al Gore will endorse Howard Dean's bid for the presidency. <br/> <br/>Here is a link to the article: <br/> <br/>http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2003-12-08-dean-gore_x.htm <br/> <br/>r.m. </div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 14 replies </div>

b3gl 2003-12-08T22:55:26Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/062b0624-3214-46af-ac09-5f5938310359 2003-12-04T15:33:50Z 2003-12-04T09:45:14Z

<div>First of all, hello to the various numbers of New People who shall be irritatingly singled out for the purposes of greeting! <br/> <br/>More seriously, Blunkett has announced plans to make certain reforms to legislation covering domestic violence. The gist is: <br/> <br/>- A defence of provocation ("yes, I did it, and it wasn't self-defence, but I wasn't acting sanely under the circumstances"). A bit like self-defence, but not. <br/> <br/>- Make it easier for magistrates to issue "stay away" orders, even in the case where no crime has been found to have been committed <br/> <br/>- Make parents or others in a position of care within their family (e.g., a couple looking after an elderly parent) jointly responsible for neglect in a situation where one of them can't be singled out for it. <br/> <br/> <br/>- Increased leaning on the Police to actually deal with domestic violence cases. <br/> <br/>Overall, they seem to me like not terribly bad ideas. I'm concerned, however, that they could leave things open to systematic abuse. Also.. do investigators of cases of domestic violence discriminate towards women? Do proportionally more women report such cases than men?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 20 replies </div>

Mo 2003-12-04T09:45:14Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/1bf2603f-6e15-41c3-8eec-39319507b75d 2003-12-04T09:49:33Z 2003-12-04T09:49:33Z

<div>Some doctors and academics are calling for the ability for the NHS (or some independent body) to be able to purchase organs (such as kidneys) from live donors. <br/> <br/>The scenario is: currently, there's an annual demand for about 5,000 organs which could come from live donors. About 2,000 of these come from live donors, and a few hundred from deceased who left a donor card (or similar mechanism). Obviously, there's a shortfall, and these doctors think that offering money in return for organs might encourage donations. <br/> <br/>Are there ethical problems with this? Is the old joke of 'selling a kidney to pay off a debt' about to become a reality? Obviously people who don't need the money are donating right now - otherwise there wouldn't currently be any live donors at all - but would paying for the organs just encourage poor people to donate?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

Mo 2003-12-04T09:49:33Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/f0b0c4f5-454b-4071-b1eb-6c7fc603c251 2003-11-24T15:10:51Z 2003-11-24T12:30:13Z

<div>I'd be lying if I said I hadn't ranted about them before, though I can't claim that I know all the ins and outs of them. <br/> <br/>What I'd really like is for someone here to be able to post a decent synopsis of what the benefits of Foundation Hospitals are, how they're expected to work, and then we can move on to debating whether they're actually a good idea or not. <br/> <br/>As I understand it, and I could very well be wrong, the basic gist is that hospitals will be responsible for managing their own resources (rather than it all being done centrally), thus encouraging the postcode lottery of public healthcare. I've got a feeling the private sector comes into it somewhere, though it might just be by implication rather than part of the plan itself. <br/> <br/>If somebody (Hi Tom!) would like to fill in the blanks/correct me as appropriate, I'd be very much obliged.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 5 replies </div>

Mo 2003-11-24T12:30:13Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/645264d3-cc95-4202-b118-d334204e153b 2003-11-24T12:22:31Z 2003-11-19T18:27:15Z

<div>On Monday night, I watched a film that I'd been meaning to see for a while. Well, I say a film, it's more of a documentary. Specifically, it was Michael Moore's "Bowling for Columbine". <br/> <br/>There's plenty bad that can be said for Michael Moore, but there's plenty good, too, and Bowling for Columbine was a fairly decent compromise between full-on documentary and entertaining (yet thought provoking) product. <br/> <br/>Although it was flawed in certain areas (notably some rather creative editing of Charlton Heston's speeches), it did well to highlight a big problem that America seems to suffer from, and that Britain is rapidly heading towards: fear. <br/> <br/>Put simply, we're drowning in it. Every news report of any significance is about how somebody's been mugged, or raped, or murdered, or bombed. If you didn't know better, you could be forgiven for thinking that you'd be taking the biggest risk of your life by opening your front door. You don't want to get on a bus - if you're not mugged on the bus, you'll probably be shot at the bus stop, and if you're female, there's a good chance you'll be raped on the way to the bus stop. <br/> <br/>But, you do know better. You know that the chances of that happening are realistically very low. The worst that's likely to happen is some verbal hassle, and that's once in a blue moon. But does everyone? What happens when you start to believe it? <br/> <br/>The answer? You get scared. Of pretty much everything. Perhaps a better term would be 'paranoid'. The problem is, people who are scared have an urge to 'protect' themselves. And in a country like the US, there's only one way to do that: get a gun. Even better, get three. <br/> <br/>To many people, the idea of someone who's largely paranoid brandishing loaded weapons seems somewhat foolish. In fact, that in itself can be quite scary. So, those who weren't scared before certainly have reason to be now. The result? EVERYbody has a gun, and everybody is in a mood to shoot first and ask questions later. <br/> <br/>Now, look at Canada (yes, seriously). <br/> <br/>Canada has very similar gun laws to the USA. Just like most homes in the USA, most homes in Canada will have a gun in them. You'd probably guess that the gun-related crime rates in Canada are as high as they are in the US, but they're not. In fact, even when you account for population sizes and rural/urban distribution differences, Canada's gun crime rates are still barely anything compared to the US. <br/> <br/>Turn on a TV in Canada, switch to the news. Do the same in the US. *Do the same in the UK*. Which is the odd one out? (Hint: it's not the UK). <br/> <br/>We live in an "information age". Pieces of software regularly supply us with "news" within minutes of things happening.. and there's nothing wrong with that. Sort of. <br/> <br/>Go and look at BBC News. In fact, go and look at any major news channel or website - they're all pretty much the same. <br/> <br/>Ask yourself this: is the picture painted by them a remotely accurate reflection on life today?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 17 replies </div>

Mo 2003-11-19T18:27:15Z http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/d6a4b48c-4751-45f6-94d4-07759c7539ad 2003-11-23T19:15:56Z 2003-11-23T19:15:56Z

<div>you may reach me at musicamaria@yahoo.com at anytime to discuss liberal politics</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

2003-11-23T19:15:56Z Elanor http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/d81724a4-2668-4779-8a6f-734d335b4384 2003-11-22T21:40:33Z 2003-10-22T13:57:37Z

<div>Yey, exams over, I can dedicate all of my time to posting on here now. Woo! ;) <br/> <br/>So, capitalism. Is it a good idea or not? What do people think? I've never really understood the ins and outs of it i nany depth. I have a natural leaning towards the anti-capitalist protestors _in that_ they seemed to be sticking up for the people in the world that are being hard done by. But I saw a programme the other day which made a lot of sense. The gist of it being that capitalism makes everyone richer and the poorest countries in the world are the ones that _haven't_ adopted it, rather than the ones being mistreated by the world bank etc. <br/> <br/>It does make a lot of sense that removing restrictions allows businesses to grow more freely and that will generate wealth. The gap between rich and poor will be larger (Probably much larger), but the poor will still be richer than with other systems. <br/> <br/>The hated Nike in fact pay their workers handsomely compared to local incomes and locals are queuing up to work there (according to this programme anyway). <br/> <br/>Certainly there is a lot of work to be done towards making the system fairer, but isn't it more useful to do just that, rather than trying to scrap the system? <br/> <br/>Or are there other options? <br/> <br/>Or are you all happy so long as you can get rich quick and to hell with those scrounging poor folks? ;)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 2 replies </div>

Elanor 2003-10-22T13:57:37Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/1921cb39-a134-4185-9cf0-6d2ecfb5f665 2003-11-12T10:14:45Z 2003-11-11T20:16:47Z

<div>ID Cards</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 2 replies </div>

Mo 2003-11-11T20:16:47Z Jamie http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/ad462b5d-3a89-4ada-8c8a-9d80832390d2 2003-11-06T19:14:31Z 2003-10-10T08:46:29Z

<div>So who are all these new members? Hello, new members! <br/> <br/>Are you seriously interested in joining in, or have you just joined as many tribes as you can on a free ticket? <br/> <br/>A question then; <br/> <br/>religious establishments. Traditionally, they've kind of taken care of themselves. But in recent years we've seen many many scandals appear owing to the fact that although their representatives are often placed in positions of considerable social responsibility, they are far from incorruptible (if that's a word). <br/> <br/>In other vocations of a similar level of social responsibility (social work, policing, healthcare, or teaching perhaps) there are considerable controls exercised to ensure the integrity of "new recruits" as it were. <br/> <br/>Should there be some kind of control imposed upon the religious establishment as there are in other sectors? If there is already, you may call me stupid and throw fruit. <br/> <br/>What do you think? <br/> <br/>:)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 7 replies </div>

Jamie 2003-10-10T08:46:29Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/1e376791-c061-48cc-b023-fcda398c297d 2003-10-04T08:32:35Z 2003-10-02T21:08:31Z

<div>Okay. This might spark a great big argument, or it might spark apathy (if that even makes sense). <br/> <br/>The war. It's easy in hindsight, but I want honest answers: <br/> <br/>Were you in favour of the war before we invaded Iraq? Why? Was it the right thing to do? Is there any link between Saddam and Osama (besides trade with the US, of course)? <br/> <br/>What's the right thing to do when faced with questionable evidence and a difficult decision (as our Prime Minister faced)? <br/> <br/>Were we mislead about the justification for war? What should happen next? <br/> <br/>[And, as a footnote, you might find http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com interesting, if somewhat saddening, reading]</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 2 replies </div>

Mo 2003-10-02T21:08:31Z Jamie http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/a0ffaa5e-4050-4efd-affd-694497420347 2003-10-03T14:26:32Z 2003-09-29T09:56:30Z

<div>This is more a wondering than a topic for debate, I think. The question is this; <br/> <br/>No matter how I try, I can't find a reasonable justification for blood sports (in particular fox hunting) in my mind. Those that know me will know that I'm not usually a particularly single minded person, and that I generally will quite readily see many sides to a given debate. Is there a proper reason for fox hunting to continue?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 33 replies </div>

Jamie 2003-09-29T09:56:30Z Rhys http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/4465ad33-f43a-4238-941c-2f56eb6693c0 2003-09-30T16:16:43Z 2003-09-30T14:36:38Z

<div>I for one was disgusted with the Fire Service Union when they were asking for a 40% pay rise. If felt that it was unrealistic and did no real service to the people the union represents. It felt as though the bad old days of the 70s was going to return with unions making stupid pay claims and striking for the smallest thing. <br/> <br/>After all, you go into an area of work knowing what the pay is likely to be. If you don't like it, don't do it, and there is no lack of people wanting to be fire-people. <br/> <br/>So the union, seeing a (New) Labour government which is putting more money into public services thinks it can capitalise and hold the country to ransome. Disgraceful behaviour! <br/> <br/>Do you agree? Have the unions learned nothing in the last 30 years? or are they just flexing muscles they are empowered to flex by their members? <br/> <br/>In Finland they have many unions and most (if not all) salaries are negotiated by collective agreement. It is illegal strike during a pay dispute. Should we have a similar rule here? Should all salaries have to be published to ensure fairness in private companies? <br/> <br/>What do you think is the proper role for the unions in an independent liberal society?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 3 replies </div>

Rhys 2003-09-30T14:36:38Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/d86abb91-2b8c-49af-8677-54dd16aa2563 2003-09-30T15:05:11Z 2003-09-28T22:47:01Z

<div>If you were the chancellor, what would YOU do? A few starters: <br/> <br/>Would you create another tax bracket for /really/ high earners? (i.e., those earning hundreds of thousands a year). <br/> <br/>At what point does taxing something become prohibitive to the point of it gaining the country less revenue? <br/> <br/>Is increasing the tax on cigarettes every few years fair (given that they're addictive)? <br/> <br/>Perhaps most importantly, how would the money get spent?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 2 replies </div>

Mo 2003-09-28T22:47:01Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/18ae3314-b670-4ec4-b857-f7c24112df3c 2003-09-30T14:01:05Z 2003-09-29T22:58:05Z

<div>Megan posted about Mandatory Service a couple of days ago, and it's an idea that's caught my attention. Her idea was that everybody should have to do a couple of years of what is effectively community service - working in parks, soup kitchens, councils, hospitals - wherever you're suited. Her angle was to gain a better understanding of Government and it being a prerequisite to being eligible to vote. <br/> <br/>I want to take a different angle on effectively the same idea (so due credit to her for coming up with it!). <br/> <br/>How about tying some kind of public service into the education system? Currently, unless you're getting private tuition, you have to attend school until the age of 16. What if, say, by the time you're 25, you have to have put in a certain number of hours (paid, obviously) public service? Nothing drastic - this isn't a punishment, after all - think of it as a compulsory work experience - given that by the age of 25, a fair number of people haven't ever had any kind of real employment (excluding bar work at the local SU). <br/> <br/>Could this work? Obviously, it'd be paid for by the taxpayer, but would the benefits outweigh the costs? Could it help students to a certain degree (beating the 'can't find summer work' problem)? <br/> <br/>Personally, I was initially against this idea altogether, but on reflection, it's not nearly as bad as it sounds. There's plenty of openings for people with all kinds of interests, after all - and it doesn't have to be a conscription type of affair in order to achieve the same things. The question is, am I barking up the wrong tree? :)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 3 replies </div>

Mo 2003-09-29T22:58:05Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/7b19954e-dae7-4a36-8185-53a61451a90f 2003-09-30T13:40:03Z 2003-09-29T22:27:42Z

<div>It's been an interesting couple of years. There's been a few PPP and PFI schemes introduced, though I can't honestly think of any which have been successful. A recap of some of them: <br/> <br/>Schools. First off, there's Peacehaven Schools Ltd, which runs a school in East Sussex, who tried to charge the county council £7 million to build an extension to the school which shouldn't cost half that. After refusing to go lower than £5 million, the expansion has been abandoned because the council can't get value for money. The unfortunate part is that PSL have 23 more years on their contract to run the school. <br/> <br/>Or Jarvis, who run Varndean School, in Brighton. Or rather, don't run, because they're incapable of doing it right. A recent school governors' report to parent states "Jarvis have also managed not to improve the worst toilet in the school, despite having refurbished it", and any caretaker work requires a phone call to Jarvis, who must phone the caretaker, even if he or she is in the room at the time. To add insult to injury, the school were recently threatened with having their electricity supply cut off, despite the contract being between the LEA and Jarvis. <br/> <br/>And most famously, there's WS Atkins' running of Southwark's education service, which was so successful that WSA have pulled out of the contract at short notice, with the local council ordered by the DfEE to cover any financial shortfalls (approximately £1.5m). <br/> <br/>Then there's the trains - both overground and underground. Obviously, Railtrack were a big deal, but that was the tip of the iceberg as far as private industry managing public rail transport was concerned. Jarvis, WS Atkins, Serco, and friends, are all contracted to maintain various sections of the railways and London Underground, at a cost to the taxpayer (both financial, and in terms of safety). Jarvis has had a string of court appearances for failing to adhere to safety regulation. <br/> <br/>Going back further, there's the train operators themselves. Connex has been and (almost) gone, leaving everybody out of pocket. Virgin claimed they could run high-speed trains on the West Coast line, but failed. The Strategic Rail Authority is still happy to give them billions of pounds of taxpayer's money for doing just that, however. <br/> <br/>Moving onto hospitals. I don't have any specific examples to hand, though Google will probably help you out (or back issues of Private Eye, I'd warrant). Suffice to say, every single PFI-run NHS hospital "trust" has led to a huge shortfall covered by the taxpayer. To the best of my knowledge, there hasn't been a single success. <br/> <br/>And finally, there's just plain dodgy dealings. Eye readers will probably be aware of the Mapley-Steps affair. To summarise, this was a deal whereby all of the publically-owned buildings belonging to the Inland Revenue and Her Majesty's Customs and Excise were sold to a company. This company would then lease back the buildings to the Revenue and HMCE. The only winners in this were the company involved, who were (ironically, perhaps) based in a tax haven (Bermuda). <br/> <br/>So, those are my examples of PFI/PPP. I'd love to hear some counter-examples - I really would. The question is: Is there a case for it? Is there a situation where it *can* save the country money? Or is it just a case of the Governments playing into the hands of corporations and we lose out because of it?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 1 reply </div>

Mo 2003-09-29T22:27:42Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/9b7e7fdc-599c-4ff0-8471-1883d41fbfe8 2003-09-29T13:06:51Z 2003-09-27T00:05:54Z

<div>This is an issue which has been in the news a lot recently, and is quite close to home in some respects with some of the people here. <br/> <br/>In short: Who is responsible for children using chatrooms, IRC, talkers, and so on, talking to people, and then going to meet them in person? Is it down to the parents to supervise their kids? Should ISPs and "chatroom providers" do more to moderate things? Is the kind of moderation being talked about remotely practical in the real world? <br/> <br/>What do you think? <br/> <br/>(I'm going to post my opinions as a reply so as not to dilute this post).</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 7 replies </div>

Mo 2003-09-27T00:05:54Z Prufrock http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/797bff90-65c6-4385-b76d-e1dbfd4d396e 2003-09-29T12:19:29Z 2003-09-26T18:11:09Z

<div>I already know that you lot won't agree with me on this one, but hey, our non-constitution Constitution says I can spew forth my contraversial views. So there. <br/> <br/>I think that every citizen should have to spend a period of two years in service to their government. Not in a military capacity, but in public service. Volunteer work. Yup. That's right. I think we should all have to either work at cleaning up parks, volunteering in a soup kitchen, or, if your strengths are in technology -then you should have to do work for an organization that needs geek help. But hey, if you want to join the military - go ahead. Do your two years there instead. I think that everyone should have to spend two years really learning about civics before they can actually participate in government by voting, and consequently having a profound impact on the government. If your vote if your voice, I think you should know how to use it wisely. Two years witnessing what role government plays in our lives, yeah, well that will help. Don't ya think? <br/> <br/>If you are catching a "Starship Troopers" theme here, blame my dad. He read it to me as a bedtime story. <br/> <br/>That is all.</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 5 replies </div>

Prufrock 2003-09-26T18:11:09Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/f123f6e6-c334-4a0b-836b-74fee646e569 2003-09-28T22:42:50Z 2003-09-28T22:42:50Z

<div>This is a few different things all rolled into one, because they flow that way. Opinions on any/all as necessary :) <br/> <br/>Should the recording industry be better regulated? Is something like Magnatune (http://magnatune.com) something we should be headed towards? Is regulation in general effective? Does the ASA (voluntarily regulation, pretty much) work better than OFT (enforced regulation), and if so, why? Am I comparing apples and oranges? :) <br/> <br/>While we're at it -- what about cartels in general? There's diamonds, of course, and oil. A piece I read today put the price of petrol in pre-war Iraq at approximately 1 US cent per litre. (I know the Government has a fair amount to do with the price of petrol over here, but so do OPEC).</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

Mo 2003-09-28T22:42:50Z Mo http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/5b8a13ea-b255-41aa-ae18-5cc368f99ee3 2003-09-26T23:45:07Z 2003-09-26T23:45:07Z

<div>"Tip: The subject catches people's attention" <br/> <br/>Hopefully, it did. <br/> <br/>Okay, I'm going to try and explain a little bit about what this Tribe is, what it's for, and how it works, along with a few caveats, just in case. If anything doesn't make sense, or anyone's got any questions, feel free to send me a message personally, or just post a reply to this (which is probably more useful for others). <br/> <br/>What is this thing? <br/>=================== <br/> <br/>This is the "Independent Liberals" Tribe. To be honest, the name was the best of a bad bunch. According to Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of 1913, one definition of "liberal" is: <br/> <br/>"Not narrow or contracted in mind; not selfish; enlarged in spirit." <br/> <br/>That's pretty much the definition I was heading for when I named this Tribe. Or, in English: a bunch of people with their own ideas and opinions, who (hopefully) have enough common sense to consider more than themselves. <br/> <br/>What's it for? <br/>============== <br/> <br/>The idea is this: everybody has their own ideas about how their country should be run. Some of them are good, some of them aren't. If, somehow, we could take all those good ideas and turn them into some kind of concensus, then maybe the whole could end up greater than the sum of the parts. <br/> <br/>To put it another way, if we can agree on a whole collection of things, then a group of us shouting about them together should be more effective than shouting individually. Make sense? <br/> <br/>How does it work? <br/>================= <br/> <br/>This is fairly open-ended. Basically, if you've got an opinion on something policy-related, be it speed cameras, oil prices, arms dealers, regeneration of greenbelt land, or whatever, post it. Hopefully, that'll spark a discussion about it, and maybe we'll reach some kind of an agreement as to what we collectively think about the issue. <br/> <br/>That said, there's no loyalty here. That's what I mean when I wrote "This is not a political party". Basically: don't [dis]agree with somebody because you [dis]like them. Voice *your* opinions, and if we can't find any common ground, then we can't, and it's not the end of the world. That is, unsuprisingly, what the "Independent" bit is all about. <br/> <br/>What I'll try and do, as well as doing what I hope plenty of others will do - and get involved in the discussions - is try and keep track of any conclusions we draw. I don't really want to use the word "policy document", because it sounds horribly over-political. But that's what I want to draw up. Basically, a page, or a document, or whatever, which details what we as a group agree on (and what we can't agree on). It could be as simple as "we all thought replica handguns which can be easily converted for live ammunition should be outlawed", or "after much debate, we couldn't agree on the best way to sort out the public transport mechanism". The important thing is that it's all there, and other people can see it (and get involved based upon what's written there if they want to). <br/> <br/>I hope that all makes sense :) <br/> <br/>Caveats <br/>======= <br/> <br/>First and foremost, anyone's welcome to join in and add their two cents, pence, or whatever. There might be a tendancy for posts and comments to be oriented slightly towards England, but that doesn't preclude discussions about any other country, and it doesn't mean that people from other countries don't have a valid opinion on how England is run. I'm hoping we can all learn from each other. <br/> <br/>That said, any hint of mudslinging, name-calling, racism, sexism, sizeism, or anything along those lines is unlikely to go down well - to the point where the offending posts or comments will be removed if necessary. <br/> <br/>Theoretically, a bunch of people who don't know each other /can/ have a sane debate (that's debate, not argument) without it turning into a bloodbath. If this works, it'll prove that theory correct, and I'd really like it to be. <br/> <br/>And finally... <br/>============== <br/> <br/>Don't wait for someone else before posting. There's no reason why lots of things can't be discussed at once. Try not to rehash issues, though, unless there's something new to bring to the discussion. Going over the same ground over and over again doesn't really encourage the right sort of debate. <br/> <br/>I *think* I've explained it coherently, but I'm sure there'll be questions. For the moment, though, I'll shut up :)</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 0 replies </div>

Mo 2003-09-26T23:45:07Z Jamie http://indielibs.tribe.net/thread/363ed94c-8d8d-45ee-9cad-31db0394d75f 2003-09-26T15:21:32Z 2003-09-26T11:56:40Z

<div>Hm. Noone's posted anything yet. Since Mo sent the first invite out, maybe it should be Mo who posts the first message to the board. But you can't Mo! Cos I've hijacked it now! <br/> <br/>What are we all about, then, Mo?</div> <div> posted in <a href="http://indielibs.tribe.net">Independent Liberals</a> - 3 replies </div>

Jamie 2003-09-26T11:56:40Z