Religion and State?

topic posted Tue, February 3, 2004 - 12:14 AM by  Jamie
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France are currently debating a law set to ban symbols of religious faith in schools, which would effectively outlaw the wearing of headscarves, turbans, large crosses, skullcaps, or even the growing of beards, if done so for religious reasons.

Their president, Jacques Chirac has said it is necessary to preserve the national principle of secularity - separating religion and state.

Does this seem a bit wrong to anyone else? Or just me?
posted by:
Jamie
United Kingdom
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  • Re: Religion and State?

    Tue, February 3, 2004 - 1:50 AM
    I think it's a ridiculous infringement, but I can see his point.

    Anyone want to try to persuade me one way or the other?
    • Re: Religion and State?

      Tue, February 3, 2004 - 2:09 AM
      What's the point, then?

      Surely this isn't a seperation of state from religion, it's actually (in a roundabout way) *more* of an involvement?
      • Re: Religion and State?

        Tue, February 3, 2004 - 2:47 AM
        Actually, I don't know. I'm having trouble looking at it from anything other than a reasonable point of view.
        • Dan
          Dan
          offline 9

          Re: Religion and State?

          Tue, February 3, 2004 - 3:42 AM
          It's effectively discouraging people from a religious background from being educated in a state school, because they will not be allowed to follow their religion (if said religion dictates that they wear headscarves, for example). As such, it's rather discriminatory against religions that have a "uniform". It's even going so far as to ban christian crosses as jewelry, but only if they're "too overt".

          It seems pointless, petty and vindictive to me, not to mention slightly patronising towards the kids. I didn't catch muslimitis from hanging around with anybody wearing a headscarf at school. It's another example of too much emphasis being placed on what a person looks like rather than who they are, imho.
          • Re: Religion and State?

            Tue, February 3, 2004 - 4:57 AM
            > It's another example of too much emphasis being placed on what
            > a person looks like rather than who they are, imho.

            Would Christian/Muslim/whatever children be allowed to stand on soapboxes in the playground and preach?
            • Dan
              Dan
              offline 9

              Re: Religion and State?

              Thu, February 5, 2004 - 8:48 AM
              Are you claiming that wearing a cross or a headscarf is akin to standing on a soapbox in the middle of the playground and preaching? Because that, right, is bollocks. :)

              People should be able to follow whatever religion they like without interference as long as it is causing no harm to others. I fail to see how wearing a cross or a headscarf is disruptive to anyone.
              • Re: Religion and State?

                Thu, February 5, 2004 - 5:14 PM
                It becomes disruptive when this sort of thing happens, the symbol becomes politicized. Or rather, re-politicized. Think about it from a historical perspective, and remember that most of these symbols originated as intentionally disruptive symbols, meant to distinguish one group of people from another during rebellion against the existing powers. Christianity was a political, as much as spiritual, revolution against the Judaic and Roman state cultures. Islam was a rebellion against a number of polytheistic cultures.

                Sikhism is one of most explicit with regards to symbols - the turban, uncut hair and beard, bracelet, and kirpan are very much intended to create a communal identity, and this has very political roots. Those symbols were not originally part of the Sikh faith, but were instituted after violent religious purges that their community suffered, as an act of defiance.

                The same thing is happening with the headscarf. Check out Turkey, a pretty uniformly Islamic country. Banned in universities and government buildings, the hijab has become a very potent political symbol. Every year the universities spend the first several weeks doing battle with students attempting to attend classes in hijab, and there are mass expulsions across the country. Seems ridiculous to our ears, but understand the history and situation of the Turkish government (military, actually - they guard the constitution), who are determined not to become a religious dictatorship like so many of their neighbors.

                All that said, I'm highly conflicted about the French situation as well.
              • Re: Religion and State?

                Fri, February 6, 2004 - 2:23 AM
                > Are you claiming that wearing a cross or a headscarf is akin to
                > standing on a soapbox in the middle of the playground and
                > preaching?

                No, I'm not. I've forgotten where I was going, but it wasn't there. It was a genuine question, rather than one asked to make a point.
  • Re: Religion and State?

    Sun, February 8, 2004 - 2:23 PM
    this whole thing seems like a bad joke. concidering it was the church that first instituted public education. I think people have gotten freedom of religion and freedom from religion mixed up.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Religion and State?

    Wed, February 11, 2004 - 12:51 AM

    Amazing!

    Finally France does some thing right!

    Religion IS the MOST trouble causing, war starting thing there is!

    Nearly ALL terrorists are religious. The longest wars in history are religious wars.

    MOST wars are religious wars.

    9-11 was done be RELIGIOUS people and so
    anything they do to reduce it's impact is fine by me!
    • Re: Religion and State?

      Wed, February 11, 2004 - 12:13 PM
      Do you not think that by passing this law some believers will feel victimised, thereby causing them to become radicalised and more likely to undertake terrorist attacks?
    • Re: Religion and State?

      Thu, February 12, 2004 - 3:51 AM
      I can't believe you actually said this!

      Look at what's happening in France, and transpose it onto your own country. (I'd guess that in your case, it's the good ole U.S. of A.)...

      what would happen, if you removed people's freedom of expression in other ways? Maybe impose uniforms on all citizens..

      Yes. I'm being deliberately extreme. My point is that the right to religious expression is a *basic human right* - and that to those who follow a religion, it is FAR more important than what the school thinks or wishes, let alone what the state imposes. It goes beyond all "worldly" importance, after all.

      If you suppress religious freedom, you get people doing stupid things in the name of religion. You don't remove religion at all.

      Now go to your room, and think about what you wrote.

      ;)
    • Re: Religion and State?

      Thu, February 12, 2004 - 3:59 AM
      Ps..

      "9-11 was done be RELIGIOUS people and so
      anything they do to reduce it's impact is fine by me!"

      What does this say about you?

      11-9 was an atrocity, carried out by DESPERATE people. Those people are desperate, for several reasons, namely the Jews occupying Palestine (sponsored by the US foreign policy), and various trade sanctions being imposed by the US on the arab world.

      Why do you think the nasty horrible terrorists targetted the US? Maybe it's just that those Muslims are born with a genetic hatred towards Good Guys.

      Think again.
      • Re: Religion and State?

        Thu, February 12, 2004 - 4:08 AM
        > Why do you think the nasty horrible terrorists targetted the
        > US? Maybe it's just that those Muslims are born with a genetic
        > hatred towards Good Guys.

        It's jealousy. They wish they had such Gods as Coca-Cola, Britney Spears and MTV.

        "Hey, how come we don't get Janet Jackson's boob on Al-Jazeera?"

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